But because Beethoven couldn't lay claim to his own child, he then took over this nephew. The descriptions of the appearance of his internal organs were carefully made and recorded. Learn more about the era of Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven from my videos and podcast interviews with other Vienna-based performers and experts. There is more than a hint of voyeurism in the acute desire to “know”. It's actually the first entry. Beethoven) biographers are worried about this because practically none of the supposed women was ever addressed in this manner by Beethoven. MALTZ: Right. And he said, ‘Don't worry, your children are my children.’. A crucial figure in the transition between the Classical and Romantic eras in Classical music, he remains one of the most recognized and … It would have meant that there had been an intimate love relationship. In these letters, Beethoven uses the informal, familiar 'you' to address his (Immortal Beloved. MALTZ: You mentioned in one of your articles that Minona is buried in Vienna's Central Cemetery. So Josephine was left alone and there were great financial problems. Melodious Heart 15,993 views. My bosom is full, to tell you much — there are moments when I find that speech is nothing at all. } First Question: When was the letter written? Then, 20 years later, he redated it 1803. At my actual age I should need some continuity, sameness of life — can that exist under our circumstances? It is quite astonishing to see how much thought and speculation the Immortal Beloved letter has provoked. How?! Love demands everything and is quite right, so it is for me with you, for you with me — only you forget so easily, that I must live for you and for me — were we quite united, you would notice this painful feeling as little as I should . Researchers have been divided as to whom was the intended recipient. Beethoven is buried there as well, of course. I'm going back to Vienna.’ And so that's why he never sent the letter. STEBLIN: Well the name comes from Ossian, that Gaelic Bard, and appears in Goethe Sorrows of Young Werther, and is the daughter of a musician. The possible years are therefore: 1795, 1801, 1807, 1812 or 1818. And as we all know…, we that admire and love Beethoven and his music so much, he does not deserve this to be done with his most intimate feelings. What a life! MALTZ: You mentioned Deym had died in 1804. I think that it is all intimately related with the cultural obsession, about discovering the secret of his genius. But there exist two conditions: July the 6th must have been a Monday, and Beethoven's timetable must have allowed him to be out of Vienna on this day. And I had found a letter from Charlotte, the youngest sister who had just gotten married and – this is in 1807 – where she's warning Josephine don't be alone with Beethoven. Beethoven’s missives to this “immortal beloved,” which include the only known love letter of his to use the informal German du for “you” rather than the formal Sie, were found among his personal effects; they were never mailed — a beautiful and tragic testament to the fact that their affair, like all affairs, was both bedeviled and vitalized by the awareness that the two lovers could never fully … Then it fits Josephine. } DR. RITA STEBLIN: It's a pleasure to be here. document.links[i].href += "?js=yes"; Which woman is entitled to this title? Beethoven has not finished astounding us, surprising us and enchanting us! And so when the letter to the Immortal Beloved, dated July 6th only mentions the trip between Prague and Teplitz where Beethoven was writing this letter. It wasn't just her husband, Deym. To view past editions, visit the Newsletter page. 8:19. Therese explains all of this in her memoirs in great detail and how Beethoven was so taken with the musicality and, I guess, with the beauty of Josephine that instead of just one hour a day, he would teach them for four hours a day. He would loathe such a treasonous act. Beethoven is played by Gary Oldman, one of the finest actors around. MALTZ: Especially a married woman, I imagine. So this was late 1819 and, exactly at that point in Beethoven's conversation books, someone is asking him and writing out, ‘You talk so much about the woman that her husband is going to suspect that the child among his children that has musical talent is your child.’ I mean this is great proof. Yes, I have determined to wander about for so long far away, until I can fly into your arms and call myself quite at home with you, can send my soul enveloped by yours into the realm of spirits — yes, I regret, it must be. And so she was in a sense forced to marry this baron. so far! And why did he keep it? I can only live, either altogether with you or not at all. It also required challenging previously-accepted scholarship and approaching the subject from new angles to find the truth. I mean, I can't say that I was the first to come up with Josephine. In 1909, W. A. Thomas San Galli was the first to date the letter 1812. The letter was discovered after Beethoven's death and, naturally, sparked intense curiosity about what woman inspired such passion. Well, the emperor was in Prague on July 1st and so I think that she wanted to try to solve these financial problems by speaking with the emperor and speaking with relatives of her husband. To be more exact, Beethoven in fact wrote to 'The immortal loved one' and not 'The Immortal Beloved'. And then they said, pietätlos, there's no piety because you'd have to exhume Beethoven as well to make a study. And he talks about how they had a wonderful summer 1816 in Baden and, Marie-Elisabeth Tellenbach had already found in the spa lists, Josephine's entry later that summer. I mean, I can't afford to pay to have her bones, her remains exhumed. Once the date has been decided, the place follows naturally: Beethoven went for hydrotherapy at Teplitz (Teplice - about 80 km North-West of Prague). And I also found another letter from Therese to Josephine. And this was La Mara. This letter was found in Beethoven's estate along with the Heiligenstadt Testament, and it ended up in Schindler's possession. Third Question: Of which towns does he speak of in the my Immortal Beloved letters? The echoes of this love are listened along the years, in so much of his musical works. And I think that was to declare his paternity, but instead he didn't want to cause a scandal for Josephine. Don't let him into your house. And all the people, all these scholars in the States and in England and Germany who claim that Josephine cannot be the Immortal Beloved. Is it not a real building of heaven, our Love — but as firm, too, as the citadel of heaven. They're all saying there's no proof that there was any contact between Josephine and Beethoven later on. Beethoven: Piano Concerto No. What is the evidence that this encounter took place and what clues place Josephine in Prague at this time? Also, I am intrigued by the fact that this letter was found in Beethoven's possession. In 1795, 1801 and 1807, biographers know the whereabouts and activities of the composer. Though still in bed, my thoughts go out to you, my Immortal Beloved, now and then joyfully, then sadly, waiting to learn whether or not fate will hear us - I can live only wholly with you or not at all - Yes, I am resolved to wander so long away from you until I can fly to your arms and say that I am really at home with you, and can send my soul enwrapped in you into the land of spirits - Yes, unhappily it must be … Anyway, I believe that the question about WHY so much ink has been used in writing about the identity of the woman Beethoven loved can have an answer. After 1818, he would have had charge of his nephew Karl, when it is not at all likely that he would have written such a letter. And you found something curious about this ‘St’, STEBLIN: His 'St' looks very much like an 'A' and Gräffer, who was the copyist, if he just saw this one initial cipher? MALTZ: This is where the story gets particularly interesting to me and I think to anybody who has an interest in this subject is that there is more to this encounter on July 3rd in Prague in 1812, that Beethoven had with Josephine. This Immortal Beloved letter by Beethoven is dated Monday July 6th. And these are love letters from Beethoven to Josephine that he wrote between about 1804 and 1809 – this was the period after Deym had died. In Beethoven’s unsent love letter to his ‘Immortal Beloved’ he wrote: My angel, my all, my own self — only a few words today, and those in pencil (with yours)… Can our … Without you — pursued by the kindness of the people here and there, whom I mean — to desire to earn just as little as they earn — humility of man towards men — it pains me — and when I regard myself in connection with the Universe, what I am, and what he is — whom one calls the greatest — and yet — there lies herein again the godlike of man. This letter is one of the most famous documents in the legacy of the great German composer Ludwig van Beethoven (1770–1827). Written by Smoothhoney1265 Plot Summary | Plot Synopsis Therefore, he met Goethe some days later. Beethoven proves that art offers something beyond the physical or the material world. MALTZ: It would seem to suggest that four years later it was still and has only ever been this one woman. MALTZ: Today's cake is a Schoko-Mousse Herz, or chocolate mousse heart. You will get over it all the more as you know my faithfulness to you; never another one can own my heart, never — never! And your research sheds light on a side of Beethoven that is quite opposite to the fiery personality we often think of – a Beethoven who wanted to love and be loved. Long after his death he was exhumed twice, his bones and skull were measured and weighed again, and then photographed when it was finally possible… It is as if those men cherished the hope to find some kind of clue. So then, and once again, let us –this time-- admire in turn his keen intellect, and watch how this smart man, has left several generations past, and to come, ----- still looking for an answer to the Immortal Beloved. MALTZ: We're skipping forward now, there was another cryptic comment that has stumped Beethoven researchers for years. for (i = 0; i < document.links.length;i++) { We shall probably soon meet, even today I cannot communicate my remarks to you, which during these days I made about my life — were our hearts close together, I should probably not make any such remarks. Beethoven once threw marriage proposal on Therese Malfatti, which got rejected. Was it never sent? Following Beethoven's death in 1827, an undelivered letter in his hand addressed to "Immortal Beloved" is discovered. As a last testament this document may have been faulty, but as a biographical puzzle it was a masterstroke, inspiring two centuries of fevered speculations, of which this … And just recently the business manager of the Beethoven House in Bonn, Malte Böcker, wanted to have all of my correspondence with this Gesundheitsamt because, in the end, it was sort of like… well, who's going to pay for this? I think that the riddle of the Immortal Beloved letter is something of this kind of issue. And remaining frustrated. Numerous therefore propose it to be Karlsbad (more than 120 kilometers West of Prague, and a 100 or so kilometers from Teplitz). What I am bringing out now are the 108 marriage letters between Deym and Josephine and they're very erotic and they show that it was really a loving marriage, not like what you read in Therese's memoirs. I should go back and explain that. Where do I come from? Ludwig von Beethoven – July 6, 1806 Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827), one of history’s most famous and mysterious composers died at the age of 57 with one great secret. But, I decided to look at the problem again from a new angle and to look at that word kennen and thought, okay, if you view it in the biblical sense of to know a woman, sleep with her. MALTZ: So let's move forward. It was written to an unknown woman who Beethoven simply called his … The possible years are therefore: 1795, 1801, 1807, 1812 or 1818. His longtime secretary Anton Felix Schindler takes it upon himself to track down this person to whom Beethoven has willed his fortune. She was the dedicatee of the Moonlight Sonata. STEBLIN: Josephine came to Vienna in May of 1799 with her mother and her older sister Therese, to have piano lessons with Beethoven. Just now I perceive that letters must be posted first thing early. Second Question: Where was the Immortal Beloved letter written? Let God return peace to your soul and so that you can return to your children and your family. Gary Oldman, Jeroen Krabbe, Isabella Rossellini and Valeria Golino star in IMMORTAL BELOVED, a mesmerizing mystery based on the tumultuous real life of Ludwig van Beethoven. Letter with the subject – Immortal Beloved. So it is with you, you with me." MALTZ: And this would explain how in the fall, Beethoven returning to Vienna, sees a happily-married Josephine with Stackelberg and writes, “Auf diese Art mit 'St' geht alles zu Grunde.”, STEBLIN: That's right. What abominable waste of time in such things — why this deep grief, where necessity speaks? Was it 1819 or 1820, I believe… where somebody writes to Beethoven about this musical child. And I discovered that Josephine got pregnant and her fifth child was illegitimate, Maria Laura. What are your thoughts about a DNA test? This biography of Ludwig von Beethoven (Gary Oldman) builds its narrative around an actual letter found after his death, addressed only to the composer's "immortal beloved." Angel, I just hear that the post goes out every day — and must close therefore, so that you get the L. at once. I mean she… I know that in 1811, a year before the Immortal Beloved letter, she, was not sleeping with her husband anymore. I just recently discovered another letter by Therese to Josephine with the proof that they were hiding Maria Laura for about three years. STEBLIN: Well, I mean, what a scandal. Woven into the story is Jessica Duchen’s favoured theory (supported by many other scholars) as to the identity of the woman addressed as ‘Immortal Beloved’ in Beethoven’s letter. Here is a question that has used up a lot of ink. The earliest… Where is this town, noted as K., found when Beethoven explains: "... the only days when the post leaves for K..."? And quite rightly so. The second is more difficult. Josephine was a widow with four young children and Beethoven gave concerts in her house. So who knows? And this is dated 1818. You presented some interesting similarities between letters known to be written by Beethoven to Josephine and the 'Immortal Beloved' letter. And so what did she have to do but try to fix her marriage and, I think from the memoirs of her son, Fritz, you see what efforts she went to to be the loving wife. Whom did Beethoven love so passionately? And so they were looking for a woman whose first name started with 'A.' So Josephine was very charming, very beautiful. And these DNA studies… well, if 50% of Minona's bones come from Estonia, well then Stackelberg is the father, but if 50% come from Bonn, well then that would prove it. Today we will solve the mystery behind one of classical music history's most famous love stories: the identity of Beethoven's Immortal Beloved. And, Therese, in her memoirs talks about Minona as being different from the other children, being very stark, strong in her personality so much that we called her ‘the governess.’. Schindler brought out the first official biography of Beethoven in 1840 and, there, he claimed that the letter mentioned Julie Guicciardi. Your faithfulLudwig Monday evening, 6 JulyYou suffer, you, my dearest creature. And she also showed the most genius among the children. Elise – the mystery woman in Beethoven’s life, is still an unsolved mystery. With this in mind, the questions of certain researchers leave me wondering: - Did he know one or many women, or did he not know any? . It is as if by knowing what kind of woman loved him and was loved by him, some part of the mystery of his enormous spirit would be finally revealed to us. Letter to the Immortal Beloved, 1812 STEBLIN: What you get in these 14 love letters and there are drafts of her replies… you see that towards the end, around 1807 Josephine didn't allow Beethoven into her house anymore. Other theories were made, giving diverse answers between 1801 et 1807. They'd be gone forever. I mean, maybe he thought there'd be this scandal about the paternity or he wanted to undertake a Große Handlung or something. MALTZ: So up to this point, we've discussed Beethoven longing after Josephine for years, a surprise encounter where they spent the night together in Prague and the Immortal Beloved letter that Beethoven never sent, where he pleaded for Josephine to find a way for them to be together. Written in pencil, it is addressed to an unknown woman with whom Beethoven was apparently in a love relationship and to whom he refers at one point as his "Immortal Beloved." It is, in Beethoven’s own words, to his “immortal beloved”. They want to feel like they're a part of it. Now, we have proof that Josephine was in Baden for weeks. Dr. Steblin, why has the idea of Beethoven's Immortal Beloved captured imaginations for almost 200 years? Solve the long-disputed mystery of Beethoven’s Immortal Beloved, Unearth details of this woman’s life and her irresistible charm, Understand why Beethoven never sent the letter, Be shocked by the surprising end result of this romance. There, it was. You will receive future monthly newsletter emails. And our culture would only make some sordid media soap opera out of a most sad and beautiful love story. The letters were discovered after Beethoven's death and ever since their discovery, there has been speculation regarding whom that Immortal Beloved might have been. 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